Local United Methodist Bishop Mouths Off About Iraq War
By Jim Willis on Nov 25, 2007 in Government & Politics, Iraq War | Printable Version
How sad that the once great United Methodist denomination (President Bush’s own denomination) has drifted so far left that its bishops arrogantly attempt to pressure the President into immediate withdrawal from Iraq–a strategy that would be a complete disaster for our country and endanger the future safety of our citizens. Today’s Press & Sun-Bulletin devotes an entire story to this “letter from the bishops.” Here is a short excerpt:
ENDICOTT–Bishop Susan W. Hassinger of the local Wyoming Conference has joined the United Methodist Church’s highest-ranking spiritual and administrative leaders in demanding an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq.
The anti-war message carries significance in the religious community because it comes from the leaders of the country’s and the Southern Tier’s largest mainline Protestant church, and the denomination of which President Bush is a member.
The action is aimed directly at Bush, said Donald Perry, director of communications at the Wyoming Conference office in Endicott.
Surely the rank and file members of the UM denomination don’t support such pap, right? Oh, I’m sure there’s a certain percentage of lefties in their ranks, as there seems to be no shortage of lefties among the left-leaning denominations in Greater Binghamton. But how can the majority of members let themselves be goverend by people like Bishop Hassigner? And that got me to wondering: How are the membership ranks of the UM doing? And other left-leaning denominations? I went looking and found the following interesting numbers.
Click the image to see the original website page - Source: Demographia
In 1960 the United Methodists were the second largest (by number of members) organized Christian denomination in the United States. Today? Third largest. Sorry P&SB–you’ve gotten it wrong again. United Methodists are not the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the U.S. In a 40-year span of time, the UM denomination bled off 24% of their membership. A little startling. During the same time, the conservative Southern Baptist Convention, which changed places with the UM (was third now second largest denomination) increased their membership by 67%. Hmmm, interesting, don’t you think?
How about the left-leaning Episcopal denomination? They’ve lost about 33% of their membership in that 40-year period. American Baptists (mostly liberal) are down 6%. The National Baptist Convention of America (conservative) is up 31%. Do you see a trend here?
I’m not advocating that one’s religion become a popularity contest. However, it’s plain and obvious that Americans, by and large, do not support the ideology put forth by liberal clergy like Bishop Hassinger. She certainly has the God-given right (in America, where she’s fortunate enough to live) to voice her opinion. Likewise, parishoners have the God-given right to attend a church where they agree with the leadership. It seems to me they are voting with their feet and leaving denominations like the United Methodists in large numbers.
Technorati Tags: Iraq War, United Methodist Church, Bishop Susan Hassinger, Wyoming Conference, church membership trends
Pastor Kipp | Nov 26, 2007 | Reply
Another case of liberal bias. If a conservative church group took as strong of a stand on a political issue as the Binghamton area UM church has taken in their support of withdrawing our men and women from Iraq, guess what would happen to OUR tax exempt status!! Liberal churches and liberal “preachers?” (J.Jackson, S. Sharpton, etc.) can spout off all they want and the IRS is out to lunch. If our church did the same, all of a sudden the IRS would be crawling all over us.
I guess it is another case of “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” while the “insignificant nut” goes unnoticed. But just hang on. Our day is coming - - it is called the RAPTURE!
Pablowski | Nov 27, 2007 | Reply
We wouldn’t go to Dick Cheney from religious advice. Why would we take national security advice from clergy? (or actors, singers and athletes)
Jim Willis | Nov 27, 2007 | Reply
Good points from both Pastor Kipp and Pablowski. Thanks for commenting!
- Jim
David Heckman | Nov 28, 2007 | Reply
I find it somewhat interesting that you seem to think all left leaning churches are losing members. The congregation I serve in Tioga County had a huge decline of members during a more conservative time in its history (1960s-2000), over the last 4 or 5 years, we have renewed our commitment to our “progressive” denomination and I admit that I tend to preach a more liberal sermon and our attendance has went up each year by at least 9-10 families, most of whom have come from RC churches, and about half have spent time in more conservative mega churches in the area, and the number one thing they always say when they come to our church is…thank god, i did not think there was a church that allowed me to ask questions, and think about faith in an open and honest place. So while I do believe that there is a reason for so many churches, because i know i would not be comfortable attending your church, and you probably would not like my church, we do not need to berate each other, and think one is better then the other. When you come to my church you will hear Jesus’s teaching on peace, hope and love, and yes I will preach we are fighting a misguided and unfaithful war, but i do not insist that my parishioners believe everything I believe. Thats the wonderful part of faith, we are free to pray, research, and come to our own understanding of such issues.
Jim Willis | Nov 29, 2007 | Reply
David, thanks for commenting! I’m sure not all denominations that tilt to the left are losing members. And that’s even more true for individual churches, as attendance at a particular local congregation is often dependent on the pastor him or herself. I will concede those points.
The main point I’m making is about the trends in the nation’s mainline Christian denominations. The data indicates a major shift away from the left-leaning denominations in this country. That applies in our area as well as nationally. The facts are, the UMC denomination which I wrote about is down 33% in membership over the past 40+ years. And most of the left-leaning denominations follow a similar pattern (my study of the research is not exhaustive).
My further point in writing this piece is to try and dispel the attempts by mainstream media, including the Press & Sun-Bulletin, to portray all but a small minority of extreme right-wing Christians as opposing the war in Iraq. I believe my opinion is held not only by a large percentage of Christians in our area, but by a majority of them. I am attempting to give voice to that large population.
Liberal denominations have not been losing members (lately) only because of the war, but for many other reasons as well. It just happened that this piece by the P&SB, and the UMC Bishop’s pronouncements, spurred me to do a bit of research.
I will deeply disagree with you on the war David. However, my hat is off to you as a clergyman. It’s a tough tough job, and you literally do “the Lord’s work!” I respect your right to disagree and preach whatever you want in your pulpit. We have that freedom in our beloved country. I wish you and your parishioners God’s peace.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
- Jim
William | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
Interesting that you mention religion in connection with Iraq. The so called GOP culture of life has been directly or indirectl;y responsible for more deaths in the loss of control opf Iraq than Saddam. This hypocrisy extends to religion itself.
There really are some excellent parallels, although I realize this is off topic.
We are a nation founded on the ideas of liberty and freedom. God likes to extort people with the threat of eternal damnation if they don’t get with the program.
We democratically elect our leaders to run our constitutional republic. God is a self-appointed king. His heaven is an authoritarian dictatorship.
After reading the bible, God comes off more like Saddam Hussein than George Washington.
Jim Willis | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
Hi William… I’m sorry you come to the conclusions that you do about God. Seems to me since He created us, He’s the one who gets to decide how things should and will be. The God I read about and experience is a God of love, not hate and evil (like Saddam). He loves everyone, including you. He doesn’t ask for much in return, just your love and worship. We as Christians are called to reflect his love and all too often we fail in our calling. Please don’t confuse these imperfect reflections with the perfect Being who loves you.
One more point… I’m not the one who connected war with religion. That was Bishop Hassinger and her fellow Bishops. They obviously want this to be known and known widely–that they do not support the war and that they are “from the President’s own denomination.” As I’ve stated, it’s her God-given and American right to disagree. My observation is that most Americans disagree with her (not just about the war, but with the leftist positions held by the Bishops) as proven by membership roles.
mike | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
Jim,
As a member of the UM church I was a little surprised also to see the statements made by Bishop Hassinger. Like Mr. Heckman, I love to be part of a congregation that allows me to ask questions. Please don’t associate my church with radicals like Sharpton and Jackson. While I support separation of church and state, I wonder why this seems to be considered more of a political issue than say abortion rights. Sure the war is a hot button right now, but the Republican debates this week focused on not only Iraq but also abortion. I hear statements about abortion coming from churches all the time, I even agree that Roe v Wade should be overturned but there is no denying it is political as well.
I read about the “left” and “far left” on this site all the time and was wondering what “left” and “far left” are. Being a person of faith some atheist friends call me conservative even neo-con. When I tell my christian friends that I do not agree with the Iraq war they tell me that I am a liberal or “far left”. We need to stop labeling everybody, call me an American. Placing a label of liberal or left or far left does not accurately describe me, being a lock step conservative is not accurate either. I beleive these words are used by the media to separate us Americans and creates an us vs them frame of mind, only we are not really sure who us is or who they are, that is unless 1 view of 1 thought defines an entire person.
Looking at your category for government and politics I see no slot for Mike Huckabee. Take a break from comments about all the Dems in your slot and add in someone that we can talk positive about.
William | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply
I don’t think you’ll find many catholics, including the present and previous popes, that support this war of choice in Iraq.
But he loves me? What kind of a god needs to hold the penalty of eternal torture over our heads as punishment if we don’t worship him?
But it’s all based on faith. Where is your critical thinking, man?
Faith is not a mere failure of reason, faith is the willful abdication of reason. Faith is a moral failing. The abdication of reason is the abdication of justification. When people stop even trying to rationally justify their actions in the world - when they decide to act from faith instead - then they might just do anything at all and call it right and good. If one’s beliefs cannot be justified, and if one’s actions are shaped and motivated by one’s beliefs, then one’s actions cannot be justified.
Dogma is blind and deaf to anything that reason has to offer. Faith is non negotiable so debate is moot. You obey the rules of reason, religion ignores them and neutralizes the argument. Religion is not interested in anything about reason, it’s just about submitting to something written in a book by men during the Dark Ages. The ultimate example of ‘group think’ and indoctrination. A standard myth repeated and recycled over and over throughout human history.
Don | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply
William
First let me say that looking at your writing, you are a very angry person at God.(note capital G) I support your right to the end to have your opinion, but why would you ignore the history of this country. The laws and rules of this country were based religious beliefs and drawn up by a “group think” of men. But agree or disagree, you follow the laws because you know that they are there for your good and your protection. Just as if a parent sets up rules for their children and expects them to follow them, doesn’t mean that they are an authoritarian dictatorship. Parents love their children and want the best for them and when dicipline comes into play it is for correction and to avoid future consequences when left unchecked. Well, God is our heavenly father.(yes, I believe in creation). And he has set up rules just as an earthly father does. He does this out of love for the same reasons. Not just because he can. He wants a loving relationship with us, but leaves the choice up to us. If you look around the world today, it is pretty messed up. It wasn’t done by republican or democrat, left or right, it was done by all humans. So, if we are left to our own devices, we will certainly fail. History has proven that. So I would rather believe in a God who has the answers than in our own limited intelligence.
William | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply
Don,
Do you threaten your children with torture (hell) if they don’t worship you? Did our founding fathers?
The concept that this nation is a Christian nation runs contrary to history and reality. Founding fathers like Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine were clearly believers in a higher power, but not Christianity.
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear.” - Thomas Jefferson
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” - Thomas Jefferson
The Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - approved by President John Adams, the founding fathers, read aloud and unanimously ratified in the US Senate states in article XI:
“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”
“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally paid to the sun.”
– Thomas Paine
In this day and age where we have leadership controlling space-age weaponry that takes doctine from ancient texts written by men during the Dark Ages, it should be important to everyone to find our what Thomas Paine was talking about in the previous quote. Here are your answers: Take a moment and watch the 3 parts of this documentary on the origin of Christianity. Thomas Paine was 100% correct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmzailhVl-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6UdQxt7b24
Jim Willis | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
Hi Mike - Thanks for reading my blog and commenting. Sorry for the delay in responding. It’s been a busy weekend with the family!
You make some good points. It is not my intent to paint everyone with the same broad brush. Perhaps in my own zeal it sometimes seems that way. I know not everyone agrees on every issue and there are many differences of opinions on issues like the Iraq war and abortion.
If you knew me, you would know that I have friends from all political and religious views. Among people I call friends, some even good friends, are atheists, socialists, Jewish, Muslim, all stripes of Christianity, and on and on. I’m probably a pretty average guy in that respect. I hope my writing does not give you the impression of a one-dimensional person. It is my goal and hope to provide a reasoned and well-thought-out defense for the things I believe.
Your comments on labeling people left or right is something I’ve heard before. It may seem like I am attempting to place people in a particular “box” when I refer to left or far-left. I agree not everyone will agree (that’s a given). I also agree even people who agree on most things may disagree on particular issues. However, I believe when I refer to someone as being “left” or “far left” on a given issue, I am using language and labels that people can readily understand…that I am using a common frame of reference. I’m not attempting to demonize people with those labels, simply indicate where their positions appear on a commonly accepted political scale.
I have been and will continue to highlight issues that concern me as I believe socialism in particular, which is antithesis to freedom and our rich American heritage, must be challenged whenever and wherever I encounter it locally. Unfortunately, many people today do not even understand history enough to know they are espousing a socialist philosophy.
Hopefully that gives you a better (if brief) understanding of where I come from. Turning to your final comment, thank you for your suggestion of providing more “positive” categories and posts. I will take that to heart and endeavor to do so. You have to understand this blog has only been going for a few months and I’m still “finding my way”. I generally choose to write about things that either “juice me” and I am passionate about, or things I want to understand better. I find writing about things in those categories keeps it fresh for me and, I hope, interesting for those reading. Finally, I also like to make sure my posts have a local tie-in. So I generally don’t comment on a national issue, or political race, unless there’s a local angle. Since we will soon face a primary, you can expect to see some posts about that, which will give you a chance to comment on people like Mike Huckabee.
Again, thanks for commenting Mike. I appreciate each and every reader, and their comments, whether they agree with me or not. It is through this “conversation” that I hope to influence others, and in turn, become influenced by them.
mike | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
Jim,
I have just recently found my way to your blog and typically am not one to comment online. For some reason I find your site and content stimulating enough to respond. It is nice to agree or disagree without childish rubbish like pressconnects has to deal with.
For me, whenever left or right gets discussed when descibing people or groups, the content of what they have to say has already been pre-judged as good or bad which can lead to closed-mindedness. I guess that was missing in my first post. Blogging or e-mail sometimes makes my posts sound angry, that is not the case and I don’t intend to offend or otherwise anger anyone, just throw some comments around for thought. Nice intellectual site you have, I hope I can keep up.
Jim Willis | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
Hi again Mike! Let me say it’s a real pleasure to have readers (and commenters) like you. Like I said, I have friends from all sides of the political spectrum, and I welcome your comments. Especially if you disagree! I think it’s fun to have a civil discourse about the issues. Passions will run high sometimes…and that’s OK. As long as we can “shake hands” and stay friendly.
Jim Willis | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
William and Don–thanks for your comments! It seems we have an interesting thread going here. It’s late Sunday (right now), and my brain isn’t its sharpest. I will post on this thread tomorrow William. I would like to respond to some of the excellent points you’ve raised about Christianity, God, and our founding fathers. Have a great evening and check this space again soon.
- Jim
Jim Willis | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
Hi William,
I’ll attempt to reply to some of the issues you’ve raised in your post. I must confess I feel a bit out of my depth, but will do the best I can. I am attempting to look at these issues through your eyes, not knowing much about you. So I’ll make a few assumptions along the way.
“But he loves me? What kind of a god needs to hold the penalty of eternal torture over our heads as punishment if we don’t worship him?”
A couple of ways to look at this one William. We serve a holy God, one who is perfect. We have sinned against him by turning our backs on him. Each and every one of us is “stained” with sin. God is also just and fair. As we have earned ourselves the death penalty by default, it is wonderful grace that makes a way for us to get back to God. Grace so rich, and so expensive, that God himself paid the price. So I look at this not as God beating us over the head, trying to scare us, but reaching out his hand and extending mercy and grace. Scriptures say that hell was created not for man but for Lucifer and the angels who followed him in rebellion against God. It is not God’s choice to send us to hell, it is our own willful choice.
“But it’s all based on faith. Where is your critical thinking, man?”
I realize my message might sound crazy to someone who prises reason and intellect. But then, I am told in the Bible that God has chosen to convey his message in a very simple way that confounds “the wise of this world.” Why? So we don’t rely on our own powers of reason, on ourselves, to “reach” God. However, I don’t believe because I have faith that I lose my critical thinking functions. I do not make a “blind leap” of faith with my trust in Jesus Christ. I base it on a mountain of evidence, both biblical and historical/secular. I have evaluated the evidence and have come to conclusions regarding that evidence: My conclusion is that Jesus Christ was/is who he said he was–God in the flesh, the Messiah promised to the Jewish people thousands of years ago. Yes, I do have faith and place it in a Person, but it’s not blind and not a leap. It is based on evidence.
“Faith is not a mere failure of reason, faith is the willful abdication of reason. Faith is a moral failing. The abdication of reason is the abdication of justification. When people stop even trying to rationally justify their actions in the world - when they decide to act from faith instead - then they might just do anything at all and call it right and good.”
Again, I have not abdicated my reasoning. Rather the reverse. I have used it to reach conclusions that are, I believe, correct and line up with the evidence. I hope and pray I do not take actions with rational thought as to the consequences. My faith informs my actions, and I do not attempt to use my faith as a justification for wrong actions. We can recount times in Christendom when the church has been a poor reflection of Christ and has, in the name of Christ, done very evil things. This does not mean Christ is invalid or that Christianity is false. It means imperfect humans are sinning and (sometimes) using faith to cover their sin. We must be vigilant to guard against this type of thing.
“If one’s beliefs cannot be justified, and if one’s actions are shaped and motivated by one’s beliefs, then one’s actions cannot be justified.”
I think I understand what you’re saying here. And if I do, I agree! I believe my beliefs can be justified–that I have a reasonable foundation of evidence that validates my faith. And of course my actions are motivated by my beliefs–everyone’s actions are motivated by what they believe. To say otherwise is nonsensical.
“Dogma is blind and deaf to anything that reason has to offer. Faith is non negotiable so debate is moot.”
Dogma as you’re using it (in a pejorative sense) is blind and deaf to reason–I would agree. However, faith (what I would call reality) is non-negotiable. Look, something is either truth or it is not truth. Renaming reality as “faith” and saying it does not yield is a straw man argument. Truth is truth, no matter how you feel about it. You may not like it, but it remains truth.
“You obey the rules of reason, religion ignores them and neutralizes the argument. Religion is not interested in anything about reason, it’s just about submitting to something written in a book by men during the Dark Ages.”
It is true Christians are “people of the Book” and we consider it to be God-breathed and inspired. Just because God’s information was propositionally given in the form of written communication does not mean reason is checked at the door. We are provided a unique communication from our Heavenly Father, written down for all time, letting us know what He wants us to know about Himself. That is the Bible. It is a revelation without which we would not know the truth about the Creator. The Bible, this strange, wonderful communication by God, and the message it contains, is what changes people’s lives. It is powerful. You see it as empty fables and words written by men in the Dark Ages. I see it as marvelous and unique and more authentic than any other writing ever created. Instead of leaving reason behind, it celebrates reason. The writers of the Bible, both God and man, did not gloss over the “bad parts” of the story. It reveals man with all of his faults. It is “real.”
“The ultimate example of ‘group think’ and indoctrination. A standard myth repeated and recycled over and over throughout human history.”
Don’t you find it interesting William that throughout all of history, the majority of mankind has always worshiped something? That “religion” has been around as long as man? Could it possibly be that all of those religions spring from a common source? I think you would say they all spring from a common delusion. I am not saying they are all right or all lead to the One True God. But it fascinates me that people groups separated widely from each other have an in-born need to worship. The vast majority even have their own version of a global flood story as part of their religion. How can that be? All separated around the globe, and yet all coming to the same conclusion: there is a God.
The question I ask is this: For those that don’t worship anyone or anything other than themselves, are they really (deep down) any happier or “freer” than those who worship a Deity? Has throwing off the “shackles” of religion made them better?
Jim Willis | Dec 4, 2007 | Reply
Hi William,
A few more comments. I think Don makes a really good point…that God is our Father. And since he has created us, he makes the rules. We can disagree with those rules, rebel against them, but in the end, those rules are not capricious or arbitrary or as pleasure for an evil deity–they are for our own good and given in love.
I also would disagree with your sentiments that Christianity is not foundational in our nation’s history. Although America was not founded as a “Christian nation,” we most surely were founded by Christians. There are some notable exceptions like Thomas Jefferson, who was a Deist. But by and large our founders prayed to, worshiped, and drew strength from God. Specifically Jesus Christ.
The opening lines of the Declaration of Independence state all men (meaning all humanity) is endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Creator with a capital “C” means God–it does not mean some vague, commonly-accepted principle by a majority of the people. Rights do not flow from group consensus. They are objectively there, already existing as they have been given by God, and the founders were simply recognizing it. Recognition of God-given rights, rights that cannot be rescinded, revised or co-opted by government is uniquely American and uniquely religious in nature.
Volumes have been written about the faith of our founding fathers. You may not like our great Christian heritage, but it is a fact, revisionism not withstanding.